Discussion Forum

I've recently been looking at a UK based comedy forum and there appears to be two schools of thought (based on UK comedy output from the media)

One school of thought suggests that comedy was more cutting edge in the days of TV shows such as Steptoe, Till Death, Dad's Army, On The Buses (Don't laugh) and Love Thy Neighbour. Etc. Likely Lads, Porridge, you probably know the drill.

This school tends to think that the 'new wave' of comedy, with shows like The Young Ones, Ben Elton's stand up routines, Bottom, Filthy Rich And Catflap etc effectively ushered in 'new age' comedy, where everything (aside from Frankie Boyle) is politically correct, and thus, uniformly bland.

As humourists, I wondered what you'd think about this debate.

My own view is that back in the day, comedy had to appeal to a mainstream audience because we didn't have a great deal of choice with TV channels. That's why things like Steptoe and Dad's Army took off. Expertly written and performed for the audience of the time.

These days, it seems to my poor befuddled brain, that comedy productions tend to have a smaller target demographic, and so probably less mass appeal (Little Britain, Black Books) but then we've had Father Ted and The Royle Family.

I can't get off the fence one way or the other with this debate, but it would be interesting to read what my fellow Spoofers think.

Anybody?

Skoob.

Born way back in the olden days....I much prefer the 'older shows' and love to watch the re-runs.

Clever writing it was - the best. I don't find today's comedies half as funny.

I grew up with Open All Hours, On The Buses, and the rest.

I loved Reggie Perrin (spelling?) but the remake doesn't 'grab' me at all.


LG

I have to agree with her. Apart from Frankie Boyle, I can't think of any modern-day comedians I like, although when you point some out, I'm bound to have second thoughts.

Even FB isn't perfection. His book, My Shit Life So Far, is not funny. There are some funny ideas in it, but, more and more, I'm thinking it is his deadpan delivery and controversial subject matter that I laugh at. He goes to the extreme, and it may also be his daring-to-say-it that I find amusing.

I like old shows as well, but agree that they were written with the masses in mind. One really good example of that - which I didn't like, for everyone's information - is Love Thy Neighbour.

Then again, I used to like Cheers. Which category is that in?

Sorry to intrude on your tea party, Skoob but I got something to say: Father Ted is funniest show I've ever seen.

I felt this needed to be said.

Hello MB - long time no see. Cyber speaking.

And thanks MW and LG for the input.

I have to agree with the statement about Father Ted, probably because in real life I'm Father Jack. I just see Frankie Boyle as a smug bastard who I'd probably lob a glass at if he was on a stage near me, I loved Nina Baden Semper out of Love Thy Neighbour - she was also in real life a midwife at the hospital where I was born, so there's an outside chance that it's all her fault I'm here to annoy you all.

Thing is, I was thinking more along the lines of: Did the 80's comedy 'new wave' - the likes of Mayall, Edmondson, Elton, Sayle etc do more harm than good?

I don't really mean that in an intellectual way - or a racist way - (I don't do racism, as I'm pretty certain nobody on this site does either) but it seems pretty much to me that modern comedy is directed at the young "cool" crowd, and that quite often it tries too hard to be clever and hip, without necessarily being funny.

As I said, I can't figure out a good answer. I went to watch a stage production of Dad's Army a few months ago, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I also enjoy things like The Royle Family, Early Doors, and Benidorm, but it all seemed to change at one stage in the 80s. I loved The Young Ones and Bottom at the time, but I can't help but get the impression that the face of comedy changed forever at that specific point in time.

Or is it just that I'm a miserable old git?

Thanks,

Skoob.

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Quote: Skoob1999

Or is it just that I'm a miserable old git?

Thanks,

Skoob.

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Yes.

You're welcome,

MB


PS- It's nice to be back.

Sorry to double post, but MW raised a question about Cheers.

It isn't really relevant to what we're talking about in this context - I'm thinking specifically British comedy.

For the record - I loved Cheers, and The Beverly Hillbillies was sublime, as was The Addams Family (reminded me of home!)

Maybe US comedy deserves a seperate thread.

I think in the case of American comedy, some of the more modern stuff falls down because they use huge teams of writers, as opposed to, say, a Galton and Simpson, or a Perry and Croft - most of them are just a string of one liners and not particularly character or situation driven.

Two of our most successful series, Last Of The Summer Wine, and Only Fools And Horses were scripted by one person. In the States, that's more or less unheard of.

Maybe a decent discussion point on another thread?

Regards

Skoob.

There was a change in the 80s to use stand up comedians in comedy shows instead of classically trained actors.

This necessitated a change in the format and content matter.

All the main actors in Father Ted were all of the Irish comedians at the time, and was the pinacle of this particular approach and was from the 90s when the 'new wave' of writers and comedians had honed the new format. One of the creators of Father Ted, Linehan (?), went onto do Black Books and the IT Crowd, following a similar format but in new situations. The former is ok, the latter very good, but neither can come close to Father Ted because Catholic Priests are inheriantly funny to start with.

The launch of Channel 4 did offer viewers one more channel than the earlier sit-coms, but the only English comedy shows I remember from early Channel 4 were Chance in a Million and Whose Line is it Anyway. Chance in a Million only aired two seasons, and the writers went onto to One Foot in the Grave, which was also very funny but was a return to the more traditional classical actor instead of stand-ups. The reason sit-coms started a return to actual actors was because Whose Line started a trend in moving the stand-ups onto panel and sketch shows instead as this allowed them to do what they did best.

So which is better? 60/70s or 80/90s?

Well...I'd say that with shows like Father Ted, Black Adder, One Foot in the Grave, etc, there are at least as many 'mainstream' family orientated sit-coms that rival the 60s and 70s. Plus there was more edgy stuff being produced. In addition, there were an awful lot of comedy shows in the 60s and 70s that were absolute dross. However, as these were now 50 years ago, they have been allowed to quietly disappear from people's memories. Examples of these shows were Robins Nest and George and Mildred neither of which could do more than raise a quirky smile in the most easy to please people. My grandmother swore blind that Robins Nest was a drama.

There were good and bad shows in both eras, however, I think that I would say the change in the 80s and 90s to expand to include more edgy shows as well as the more gentle family comedies means that the 80s and 90s have the edge for comedy shows for me.

Iain

This is the stuff of a PhD thesis. Which should include a couple of pages that consider the audience.

I've always doubted the sort of laugh you get when you pack a small crowd of exactly the same sort of people into one room. Particularly with stand-ups. That's the 'political consensus laugh'. Just throw the name Maggie Thatcher onto a crap joke and they roll in the aisles.

TV sit coms began in the UK in the 1950's. With American imports like I Love Lucy. Then we learned how to do it far far better for ourselves.

TV sit-coms from the 1960's to 1980's were targeted at a wide family audience. At the start of that 30 year period, UK families gathered round the one TV in the lounge. By the end, second TV's in kitchens and bedrooms were just beginning to be the norm.

Then came the start of computers and the mass 'explosion' of screens.

This had the effect of 'killing-off' the family viewing habit. Which polarised comedy programme making. So the young began to be targeted separately from their mums and dads.

Budgets changed. Priorities changed. And very soon it was apparent that the wheel had turned full circle - and we were once again importing our laughs (not mine) from the States.

That's a sweeping generalisation. And there are exceptions. However, the golden age does seem to have left us forever.

For me the 'comedy' of the 'Young ones' and the slick hip cool crowd was defined this past weekend by Steve Coogan's comment concerning the comment on Mexicans by the Top Gear team.

Irreverent and anti Thatcher they may have been but now they all toe the line. Ben Elton is now establishment as are the rest of them now they don't want anyone to redistribute their wealth.

Coogan's comment was also motivated most likely by the fact that if you google his name most of the stuff on him comes from before 2007.

The sheer hypocrisy of the bunch is personified by Coogan who doesn't hesitate to do an Indian accent on his own shows which in itself generalises and ridiculises a particular group yet he complains about Clarkson.


CJ is right of course to talk about the audience. I think if you asked people over 40 what they want to see it would be good comedy, dramas and variety on TV. Programming that includes their views and values.

Please forgive me, as I am American, and figure I might get laughed off this thread, but I can't resist only because I've been watching BBC America for decades. I know it is not the same, per se, but we did get a peek into British Comedy and I am a bigger fan than you will know. I search out Irish comedy films because they are some of the best I've ever seen. But back to tv.

If I may add my 2 cents. There were two shows in the 70's that I watched that held my attention and made me laugh. One was "The Goodies." My son, in his teens, would sit and watch with me and while the comedy was hit and miss and some we couldn't understand, I remember us looking forward to watching that show, as well as Black Adder (the first one). Another show that I watched was "The Good Life." It had some very funny moments and again, sometimes I couldn't follow the dialogue, but the situations were good and it was well written.

Onto the 90's. No one has mentioned "Keeping Up Appearances" with Patricia Routledge, who, I believe is a trained film and stage actress. That, hands down for me, is one of the funniest British comedies I've ever watched. I may be easily entertained and perhaps no one agrees with me, but I think that woman is one in a million when it comes to comedic timing. Yes, there are other British comedy shows with a much more intelligent dialogue, but this has just the right mix.

So that's it. Sorry for the intrusion and please, don't be too hard on me. I love British comedy, as much as our American kind.

Oh, and P.S. To be clear, I try watching the more recent comedy shows on BBC America and they just don't grab me like the old ones used to. I totally agree that some major transition has taken place and the funny just isn't there anymore, at least for me. I search out the old shows on YouTube when I want a laugh.

Charpa

Back in the 60s, 70, early 80s. There was an honesty about comedy. People laughed because it WAS, funny.
Today, people laugh at inane crap because it is fashionable.
How any sane intelligent person can find the likes of a fat posh twat like Michael Macintired, funny, I dont know. And that other idiotic twat, Harry Hill.

They seem to think, that using the word "Fuck" and "Shit" are hilarious. In context, they are. But the comedy that is forced on us today, is cherlish playground stuff. There are no comedy writers anymore. Tv companies force American crap on us, and we are expected to conform. "Fuck Off!".

My children fall about, listening to the Goons, Dick Emery, Benny Hill, Lee Evans, Bob Monkhouse, Frankie Howard, Larry Grayson, Les Dawson, Bernard Manning, Tommy Cooper. To name but a few. Please, someone, give birth to a comedian that will bring back the comedy.


Arm xxxxx

Christ you are so right!!

Michael McIntyre's success is the BIGGEST joke. I don't understand it. Apart from making my skin crawl - he's just not funny.

How does he do it? He's like KFC. I mean they're everywhere so they could lay claim to be a "popular restaurant" yet if you took your other half there for a Valentine's Meal you'd get your head whacked in.

I think the best comedy is when you're pointing out the absurdities in life. They say the truth hurts but it doesn't have to.

Horrible humour that rips the piss out of people is not my cup of tea but this bland 'fuck, shit, tits and arse' stuff does nothing for me.

My favourite comedian - a genius no less - is Jackie Mason.

He's an American Jew (a former rabbi) and I'm a British woman and yet he cracks me up. Why? Because he's honest.

He's had plastic surgery bless him which has completely fried his face but I think it's time to get him back out on the road - we need him!

Uhhh... I think that... (well, I grew up in the 00s, so forgive me here), that some good British comedu has to be, like, the IT Crowd, or even... okay. I admit it. I watch no British comedy. I'm (possibly) going to see Ed Brynes (sic) at the Birmingham Symphony Hall soon. You have to look at our stand-up acts as comedy. TV comedy (today) is not that great.

Okay. I admit it too. I watch very little British stand-up. My favourite TV guide would be filled with US sitcoms and comedy-dramas.

You can't beat the old comedians:

the 18th century was the best:

an age characterised by fabulous riches alongside terrible poverty, an age of great beauty and finesse in the Arts, and great brutality in daily life and culture

it produced some great comedy

the great news is:

looks like we're heading back there, apart from the bit about the Arts!

I look forward to the restoration of Restoration comedy.

More recently, the aftermath of WW2 led to some great things in our culture, including the likes of Milligan, Cook, the comics of the 60s.

There's nothing like that to react against now.

I guess there is, but nobody's reacting.

I think the complexity, technology-rich character of today's culture leads to fragmentation and self-centredness. The old days of families sat round the telly have gone.

There's still a lot to have a go at - but who's doing it?


Anyway, I think Albanian comedy is the best, eg:

Njeriu i parë: qeni im nuk ka hundë
njeriu i dytë: se si e bën ai erë
njeriu i parë: tmerrshme

The only stuff I only really love from the 60s & 70s are probably Porridge, The Two Ronnies & Monty Python. A lot of the 70s were based on dreadful racist stereotypes (Bernard Manning, Jim Davidson, Mind Your Language, Love Thy Neighbour, etc..). I've gone off Spike Milligan after reading about his racist beliefs.

I was effectively brought up on Black Adder & I know virtually every line in it. However, the real innovative stuff (since Monty Python i'd say) is from the mid 90's, such as Father Ted and especially Chris Morris's work, such as The Day Today, Nathan Barley & Jam. Alan Partridge is just sublime, and I use this phrase very sparingly, but Armando Ianucci is just a genius. It makes the likes of My Family just embarrassing. Recently, I quite liked Pete vs Life, although it was quite painful at times. The rising star at the moment is Charlie Brooker, a good old fashioned misanthrope.

Thanks to all who've contributed to this thread.

It seems to support my view that there is room for new talent out there, as far as writing goes.

Seems like attitudes in the established TV and radio community are changing. They don't seem to to know exactly what they want, but at least they seem to be open to ideas.

Some really talented writers here on this site - maybe it's time to chance your arm. Probably won't pay the bills unless you can come up with a modern day equivalent of Only Fools And Horses or Dad's Army - but it's a challenge...

Just sayin'

Skoob.

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Quote: Skoob1999


Thing is, I was thinking more along the lines of: Did the 80's comedy 'new wave' - the likes of Mayall, Edmondson, Elton, Sayle etc do more harm than good?

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A very good question, this, Skoob.

It's the same as Punk; more harm than good? I think it has, even though I was, and am, aa ardent listener to punk and new wave music. The changes came thick and fast, but careered out of control, and now we have gays coming out of the woodwork, immigration on an uncontrolled/uncontrollable scale, people selecting 'Layabout' as a career choice, no fucker listening to the law, Islamists blowing up buses and trains in the capital, and a black president in a silly country far, far away.

Who would've thought it?

To be honest, the Young Ones was always a bit daft, and Ben Elton now sees himself as a 'serious writer'.

There's hope for us yet, mates.

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Quote: Monkey Woods

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Quote: Skoob1999


Thing is, I was thinking more along the lines of: Did the 80's comedy 'new wave' - the likes of Mayall, Edmondson, Elton, Sayle etc do more harm than good?

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A very good question, this, Skoob.

It's the same as Punk; more harm than good? I think it has, even though I was, and am, aa ardent listener to punk and new wave music. The changes came thick and fast, but careered out of control, and now we have gays coming out of the woodwork, immigration on an uncontrolled/uncontrollable scale, people selecting 'Layabout' as a career choice, no fucker listening to the law, Islamists blowing up buses and trains in the capital, and a black president in a silly country far, far away.

Who would've thought it?

To be honest, the Young Ones was always a bit daft, and Ben Elton now sees himself as a 'serious writer'.

There's hope for us yet, mates.

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And while we're at it, it's a shame we can't shoot poor people....

I'm just glad we're not back in the 70s (although economically we are). I'm also glad we had the wave of 80s alternative comedians who realised that racism and the tired old cliches were not good enough any more. They brought something exciting and new...I vaguely remember seeing Friday Night Live on Channel 4, in what 1987. It was an incredibly interesting time for comedy. During the mid 80's, Ben Elton was a comedy god (Black Adder, Young Ones, FNL, etc..) but then once he got in with Andrew Lloyd-Webber, he lost it..

Is it not fair to say there are gems from either era?

I remember being glued to Fawlty Towers, The Goodies and Python as a child.

Then came The Young Ones, Saturday Night Live with Elton (Ben not John) and Not the Nine Oclock News.

And the list goes on, but comedy is funny if it makes you laugh no matter the year.

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Quote: Proffitt

Is it not fair to say there are gems from either era?

I remember being glued to Fawlty Towers, The Goodies and Python as a child.

Then came The Young Ones, Saturday Night Live with Elton (Ben not John) and Not the Nine Oclock News.

And the list goes on, but comedy is funny if it makes you laugh no matter the year.

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Bugger, I forgot FT...

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Quote: armfeetandtoe

Today, people laugh at inane crap because it is fashionable.
How any sane intelligent person can find the likes of a fat posh twat like Michael Macintired, funny, I dont know. And that other idiotic twat, Harry Hill.


Arm xxxxx

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I agree completely.

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Quote: Eurocleese De Zouch

And while we're at it, it's a shame we can't shoot poor people....

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Of course you can, no one will ever know.



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NOW!

Can I just lop off a ear or a leg or perhaps even an shin? That way, they can't burrow into their little holes. Who's ever been harmed by a bit of maiming? It's political correctness gone mad I tell ya..

Stewart Lee's article may force the stroking of metaphorical beards..

Stewart Lee: A funny thing happened to comedy...

Oh go on.

Go for it, enjoy yourslef.