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Mark
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Mark

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Posted: 11 Sep 11 08:00
For any spoofers out there who have been left with a hole in their lives for the past ten years, you're in my thoughts today.

Where there is love there is life - Gandhi

Spoofing all over the world
Sidney Bollocks
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Sidney Bollocks

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Posted: 11 Sep 11 10:32



Ditto




Lynton
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Posted: 11 Sep 11 11:07
Likewise. And to those who would uphold the many conspiracy theories, remember, they require a level of intelligence and efficiency that no government or government official has ever been seen to possess. Also, a level of coordination never before attained in anything governmental. If a government cannot even organise its internal affairs well then why should it be any better with its secret service?

Watching paint dry
Erskin Quint
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Posted: 11 Sep 11 13:01
Absolutely. The attacks and their aftermath go down in history as a supreme example of just what human beings can get up to - for evil and for good (the good, in the many acts of selfless heroism that occurred).

SERIOUS ABOUT DRIVEL
Ellie James
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Ellie James

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Posted: 11 Sep 11 13:47
I was.teaching six year olds and coming in from the playground. A man walked up to me and said his brother worked in the pentagon and he had to.pick up his kids. A few hours later we all realized what happened. I knew no one in the towers or in DC. But i knew people who did. My brother had died nine months prior violently and suddenly with no time to say good bye. It brought back the memories of losing him and it broke my heart that there were thousands of people who were about to go through what I had been.

If you lost someone that day...I am deeply and profoundly sorry.

Ellie

Oh. They've encased him in Carbonite. He should be quite well protected. If he survived the freezing process, that is.
Tommy Twinkle
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Posted: 11 Sep 11 14:50
Important questions require satisfactory answers. Ignoring those questions is not satisfactory. Insects hide under rocks.

Philbert of Macadamia
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Philbert of Macadamia

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Posted: 11 Sep 11 15:39
Agree. Very thoughtful Mark.

There is intelligent life in outer space!
Then why do the UFO's not land on the Earth?
As I said, there is intelligent life in outer space!
victor nicholas
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Posted: 11 Sep 11 18:38 - Edited By: victor nicholas, 11 Sep 11 18:40
A friend who seldom sends me anything sent me this.

Bin Laden saw that the West was in decline

Jonathan Sacks

The 9/11 attacks are linked to a wider moral malaise, including the loss of authority, integrity and family unity

Two things have haunted me since 9/11. The first is the pain, the grief, the lives lost and families devastated, the sheer barbaric ingenuity of evil. The scar in our humanity is still unhealed. The second is our failure to understand what Osama bin Laden was saying about the West. We did not hear the message then. I'm not sure we hear it now.

After the shock and grief subsided, two theories began to be heard. The first was that this was an event of epoch-changing magnitude. The terms of international politics had been transformed. The Cold War was over. Another war had begun. This time the enemy was not the Soviet Union and communism. It was radical, political Islam.

The second was the opposite. 9/11 was terrifying and terrible but it changed nothing because acts of terror never do. Terrorist campaigns have been aimed at other countries. Britain suffered similarly from the IRA in the 1970s. The most important thing is not to overreact. Terror may bring dividends in local conflicts but it never succeeds in its larger political aims.

There is something to be said for both theories. But there is a third, no less consequential. Why did al-Qaeda attack America? Because it believed that it could. Because it thought the US was a power past its prime, no longer as lean and hungry as it believed it was.

Robert McNamara said that the first rule in politics is to understand your enemy's psychology. As I struggled to understand 9/11 I began to suspect that the answer lay in the events of 1989. That is when the narratives of the West and the rest began seriously to diverge.

In the West, 1989 was seen as the collapse of communism, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the implosion of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War. The Western narrative was triumphalist. It saw those events as heralding the victory of its values without a shot being fired. The free market and liberal democratic politics had won for the simplest of reasons. They delivered, while communism did not. They would now spread across the world. It was, said Francis Fukuyama, the beginning of the end of history.

There was, though, another narrative that few were listening to. It said that the Soviet Union collapsed in 1989 not because of the triumph of liberal democracy but because of the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan earlier that year. It had invaded in 1979 and was forced to withdraw, not because of superpower politics but because of the determined resistance of a small group of highly motivated religious warriors, the Mujahidin and their helpers. That, historically, is the event that captured the imagination of Osama bin Laden.

According to this account, that one event, the humiliating retreat of the Soviet Army, set in motion a series of internal crises that resulted, months later, in the fall of a great power. If one of the world's two superpowers was vulnerable to asymmetric warfare - the war of the few against the many - why not the other, America itself? What 1989 represented was not the end of history but the end of a history dominated by the twin superpowers of communist Russia and capitalist America.

Both were vulnerable because both were overripe and about to fall from the tree. Much excitement was felt in the West by the failure of communism. Less attention was paid to what Daniel Bell called the cultural contradictions of capitalism.

Throughout this period there were voices that few seemed to be listening to. First and greatest was the philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre in his 1981 masterwork, After Virtue. He argued that the moral discourse of the West had broken down.

The "Enlightenment project" of a purely rational ethic had failed - not because there was no such thing, but because there were too many. They clashed inconclusively and people were left with a sense that morality is whatever you think it is.

His minatory warning was: "The barbarians are not waiting beyond the frontiers; they have already been governing us for quite some time." That was a scary thing to hear from one of the world's great philosophers. I soon began to hear it from other leading intellectuals also, such as Philip Rieff, Christopher Lasch and Robert Bellah. That is what I heard in the echoes of 9/11: that all great civilisations eventually decline, and when they begin to do so they are vulnerable. That is what Osama bin Laden believed about the West and so did some of the West's own greatest minds.

If so, then 9/11 belongs to a wider series of phenomena affecting the West: the disintegration of the family, the demise of authority, the build-up of personal debt, the collapse of financial institutions, the downgrading of the American economy, the continuing failure of some European economies, the loss of a sense of honour, loyalty and integrity that has brought once esteemed groups into disrepute, the waning throughout the West of a sense of national identity; even last month's riots.

These are all signs of the arteriosclerosis of a culture, a civilisation grown old. Whenever Me takes precedence over We, and pleasure today over viability tomorrow, a society is in trouble. If so, then the enemy is not radical Islam, it is us and our by now unsustainable self-indulgence.

The West has expended much energy and courage fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq abroad and defeating terror at home. It has spent far less, if any, in renewing its own morality and the institutions - families, communities, ethical codes, standards in public life - where it is created and sustained. But if I am right, this is the West's greatest weakness in the eyes of its enemies as well as its friends.

The only way to save the world is to begin with ourselves. Our burden after 9/11 is to renew the moral disciplines of freedom. Some say it can't be done. They are wrong: it can and must. Surely we owe the dead no less.

Lord Sacks is the Chief Rabbi of the United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth

"Vottznewpuzzykatt?"
Skoob1999
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Posted: 11 Sep 11 22:14
Just read that Doc.

Fact is, we're people. People will fight. It's the nature of the beast. Some fight for religious or idealogical reasons, some fight because they feel oppressed, and some would fight for no better reason than that they enjoy it.

Power.

People hurt people because they can.

We're God's incomplete project.

And the bottom line, is that we're all the same. In the greater scheme of things - shit flies have a better record of environmental 'friendliness' than humanity could ever hope to achieve.

For all the beautiful and honourable things mankind has ever done, for the most part, we make a complete and absolute bollocks of everything we get our grubby hands on.

As long as human beings walk the face of the Earth, we'll continue to have holocausts, 9/11's, Stalingrads, Hiroshimas, it won't end. We stumble on from one tragedy to another.

I keep telling them, but they won't listen.

I remember seeing Palestinians celebrating 9/11 in the streets of Gaza, and of people celebrating Bin Laden's death in the streets of New York.

Spot the difference?

It would be nice to think that there is a utopian world out there - but there's about as much chance of that ever occurring as there is of me sprouting wings.

Atrocities like 9/11 shouldn't happen, but they do.

Maybe God should go back, and have a re-think.

And maybe we should all take a long hard look at ourselves, and consider that hatred and loathing is not such a good thing. It invariably ends in tears.

Just sayin'

Skoob.

RIP
Erskin Quint
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Posted: 12 Sep 11 19:42
Yes Skoob, spot on.

The reason it goes on is because people keep doing it. It's down to each one of us, in our own small way, to counteract all this shite.

SERIOUS ABOUT DRIVEL
Masheded
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Posted: 13 Sep 11 00:37

Quote: Tommy Twinkle

Important questions require satisfactory answers. Ignoring those questions is not satisfactory. Insects hide under rocks.


You're spot on Tommy.

First, I would like to give my condolences to all of the victims of 9/11, thier family, and the victims that are still falling ill 10 years after the event. The human cost in both lives and relatives grief is incalculable, and will take a long time to heal. Such an act of terrorism is as heinous and cowardly an act of crime that has ever been known in, i am sure, most of our generation(s).

I would also like to acknowledge Skoob in his tribute to the victims, and more importantly his assessment of the human condition; mans nature to crave greed and power.
A very insightful and accurate summation.

But i would say this to you, my fellow man.

Which is the greater tragedy. To have near 3000 people rubbed out in such an outrage, or to have the families of those people be manipulated into believing this was really carried out by Islamic terrorists.
I don't ask you to be a "conspiracy theorist", or a "reality theorist". I only ask you to look at the facts.

I'm not going to go on about timings, nationalities of terrorists, passenger lists, mobile phone calls from planes at 30k feet which isn't possible, or the official line that the plane had seat back credit card swipe phones, which were not fitted to that particular model of jumbo jet. No.

I ask you to look at facts, which produce questions, which are dismissed and never answered. You will all agree, im sure, that the 9/11 theories have been recurrent, and could easily be put to bed with the answer of a few simple questions. The victims families deserve to have the truth, and the architects of this atrocity deserve to answer for their crimes, pursuant in their lust for more power, as has been an aim of the powerful for many, many years.

The Bankers Manifesto. An official internal document:



Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. revealed the Bankers Manifesto of 1892 to the U.S. Congress somewhere between 1907 and 1917.


BANKERS MANIFESTO

We (the bankers) must proceed with caution and guard every move made, for the lower order of people are already showing signs of restless commotion. Prudence will therefore show a policy of apparently yielding to the popular will until our plans are so far consummated that we can declare our designs without fear of any organized resistance.
Organizations in the United States should be carefully watched by our trusted men, and we must take immediate steps to control these organizations in our interest or disrupt them.

At the coming Omaha convention to be held July 4, 1892, our men must attend and direct its movement or else there will be set on foot such antagonism to our designs as may require force to overcome.

This at the present time would be premature. We are not yet ready for such a crisis. Capital must protect itself in every possible manner through combination (conspiracy) and legislation.

The courts must be called to our aid, debts must be collected, bonds and mortgages foreclosed as rapidly as possible.

When, through the process of law, the common people have lost their homes,
they will be more tractable and easily governed through the influence of the strong arm
of the government applied to a central power of imperial wealth under the control of the leading financiers.

People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. History repeats itself in regular cycles. This truth is well known among our principal men who are engaged in forming an imperialism of the world. While they are doing this, the people must be kept in a state of political antagonism.

The question of tariff reform must be urged through the organization known as the Democratic Party, and the question of protection with the reciprocity must be forced to view through the Republican Party.

By thus dividing voters, we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us, except as teachers to the common herd.
Thus, by discrete actions, we can secure all that has been so generously planned and successfully accomplished.

This being a factual document, available for anybody to view online.

I would like to consider myself a rational person, albeit with an open mind, who is able to employ common sense.

So my questions are as follows, and would welcome any coherent and objective answers.

Where did the molten metal, seen around the world, pouring from the north tower come from? Official responses say this is molten aluminium from the plane. But scientists, professors, physicists, and metallurgic experts throughout thier own area of expertise, cannot explain it. Aluminium does not glow in broad daylight, no matter how hot it gets. These are grey bearded "bespectable" men, whom only faith is science. Try to get just one example of this being recreated. Its not possible.
Please answer.

A man came up from the basement of the wtc, shortly after the plane hit. He was horribly burned. The official story was that it was caused by airplane fuel fuming down the elevator shafts. The main set of elevators did not run to the basement. You had to change to a different set. The foyer was intact, yet the man reported being caught in a "fire ball". These were demolition charges to coincide with the plane strike. It is believed.

No building made from steel has ever collapsed through fire. Ever. And there have been a few. To melt steel, temperatures
of over 2600 degrees are needed. This is not possible in an open air fire. Chuck some hi octane petrol on some steel. Stick it in a garden incinerator if you must (which is hotter than any open fire). See if it gets soft, let alone melt. Its not scientifically possible. It cant happen. And remember, the towers didn't melt and bend and fall over. No. They achieved a ceiling velocity and structural weakness capable to bring them down on their own foundations. The only way this can be created IS A CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. Look it up. Lets say, by some fluke, that one did come down like that. But both? It must be bedtime story time again.
What about the smaller WTC building, that caught fire from the towers debris on 3 floors? Guess what...it fell down on its own footprint. Obviously to ensure the rest of the city was left relatively intact, as with the towers...


NB
Look up on google to see if the real estate in around the twin towers, was or was not sold to a billionaire business man (you will have to name him yourself), about a year before the attacks.

The stock market experienced the weirdest behavior, regarding companies directly attributed with the disaster. Shares were sold days before 9/11, and bought back days later for a pittance.
Look it up. Its a fact.

Reports from workers and rescuers at ground zero described runnels of molten steel running like lava down into the basement levels, which stayed hot for days and days. Open air fire and catastrophic collapse cannot cause this "phenomena". Ask a scientist. Are these brave heroes of this disaster going to lie to the camera? most of them dying still today from their sacrifice?
This is video documented, and is fact on the record.

Dust collected from the vast cloud generated has been examined. Independently, thousands upon thousand have been collected. The dust was placed in a plastic bag. A magnet was passed over the sample. A large amount of iron globules
were fund to rise to the surface, mostly 1/16 of an inch approx diameter. The samples were found to contain high contents of traces only associated with thermite. Thermite is a plastic explosive type charge, that can be melded and sculpted to any shape necessary. Charges can be seen below each foor as they collapse downward, showing as small explosions from the windows, seen in slow motion.
These are facts. Look them up.

Every controlled demolition man in the business, will laugh at you when you say that the twin towers "Collapsed".
This is a fact.

To reiterate, these questions, if answered cohesively and honestly, will put an end to this endless speculation.
The families deserve closure, and so does the world. The men, false leaders, and corporations need to be held accountable for the good of mankind. Since when was anyman above the law? they need bringing to book.

We owe to our inheritors, to ensure that this kind of oppression can never happen again. That was the message from
the end of WW2.
Yet if these easy questions cannot be answered, than how can I, You, and our future generations have any faith in the men that lead us.

They print more money repetitively, so the money in your pocket is worth less every year. Yet money seems less important than oil. Reduce the oil production, rape the currency around the world. What do Afghanistan have? A route for a pipeline of the richest reserves found in living memory.
Iraq has its own oil industry anyhow. And what happened on 9/11?
We got deceived. The terror that the attack caused, (remember the TV didn't get stopped, but the mobile phones did), made every body shit thier pants. And now we will agree to anything to keep us safe. New laws, new taxes, new travel restrictions. YOU are their enemy. Not AL Qaeda. AL Qaeda was a name coined by the CIA.
Look it up. Its a fact.

Osama Bin laden used to work for the CIA. Look it up. Its a fact.
Saddam Hussein was already an associate of the CIA not long after he came to power. This made him hard to assassinate, as the CIA had trained him to avoid it.
This is a fact. Look it up.

Patriots believe in protecting the bill of rights and the Constitution. It is every Americans duty to protect her from
attack by any outside or inside threat. (para phrase).
The American government is, and has been for many terms, the proxy government of the bamkers that control the world as we know it. If an elected government does not act for the interests of its people, it is culpable of treason.

9/11 was the world focus needed to erode our rights as human beings to the benefit of the unelcted rulers (whom ever they may be).

It is our duty as human beings, to ask for the truth, ask for the answers to these questions, and not rest until they are forthcoming. WE ELECT OUR LEADERS. We do not elect traitors.

And i would like to again pledge my deepest regrets to those effected by this horrible crime.

Cheers Tommy

Masheded





























It seemed like a good idea at the time...
victor nicholas
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Posted: 13 Sep 11 23:07 - Edited By: victor nicholas, 14 Sep 11 01:53
Without pretending to be a structural engineer the capacity of a column in a structure to resist bending follows the inverse square law with respect to it's length, i.e. if a column designed to support the load of one floor is suddenly doubled in length then it becomes one quarter as capable to resist bending as it was originally designed for.

If damage is caused to a floor plate that restrains a column from bending and it effectively doubles in length a catastophic failure may occur causing collapse of the floor above to lower levels creating a domino effect of subsequent collapses due to overloading the floors below beyond design limits for anticipated live loads.

New design requirements for buildings to resist terrorism now may include requirements for partial failure of a structure while still maintaining structural integrity.

"Vottznewpuzzykatt?"
Masheded
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Posted: 7 Oct 11 14:12

Quote: victor nicholas

Without pretending to be a structural engineer the capacity of a column in a structure to resist bending follows the inverse square law with respect to it's length, i.e. if a column designed to support the load of one floor is suddenly doubled in length then it becomes one quarter as capable to resist bending as it was originally designed for.

If damage is caused to a floor plate that restrains a column from bending and it effectively doubles in length a catastophic failure may occur causing collapse of the floor above to lower levels creating a domino effect of subsequent collapses due to overloading the floors below beyond design limits for anticipated live loads.

New design requirements for buildings to resist terrorism now may include requirements for partial failure of a structure while still maintaining structural integrity.


However, when demolition experts and architects cannot explain how the buildings fell, without including some kind of structural compromise beforehand, or explosives, however improbable the truth, it must be true.
We have the right to be told the truth, however unsavory and disturbing that truth is.

It seemed like a good idea at the time...
Tommy Twinkle
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Posted: 7 Oct 11 15:07
And what are we to make of 'building 7' ?

Philbert of Macadamia
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Posted: 7 Oct 11 21:35
TT:

It's after building 6, but before building 8!




Quote: Tommy Twinkle

And what are we to make of 'building 7' ?


There is intelligent life in outer space!
Then why do the UFO's not land on the Earth?
As I said, there is intelligent life in outer space!
Skoob1999
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Posted: 8 Oct 11 00:54
Well said Phil, and Doc.

These conspiracy theories are an insult to those who perished and an insult to the bereaved.

Without going into technicalities, which are unnecessary as there are sources everywhere - as my esteemed friend Lynton pointed out - there isn't a government or an organisation on earth who could have engineered a scenario like 9/11. It would have had to have involved thousands of individuals.

No government or organisation is that competent.

Coming back to topic - it was the most horrendous event to take place in my lifetime, and I'll never forget it.

Maybe it's best left at that.

Sincerely

Skoob.

RIP
victor nicholas
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Posted: 8 Oct 11 03:15 - Edited By: victor nicholas, 8 Oct 11 03:21
I just told you fool.

Quote: Masheded


Quote: victor nicholas

Without pretending to be a structural engineer the capacity of a column in a structure to resist bending follows the inverse square law with respect to it's length, i.e. if a column designed to support the load of one floor is suddenly doubled in length then it becomes one quarter as capable to resist bending as it was originally designed for.

If damage is caused to a floor plate that restrains a column from bending and it effectively doubles in length a catastophic failure may occur causing collapse of the floor above to lower levels creating a domino effect of subsequent collapses due to overloading the floors below beyond design limits for anticipated live loads.

New design requirements for buildings to resist terrorism now may include requirements for partial failure of a structure while still maintaining structural integrity.


However, when demolition experts and architects cannot explain how the buildings fell, without including some kind of structural compromise beforehand, or explosives, however improbable the truth, it must be true.
We have the right to be told the truth, however unsavory and disturbing that truth is.


"Vottznewpuzzykatt?"
Skoob1999
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Posted: 8 Oct 11 03:35
Pancake effect.

Things fall down, not sideways.

Especially when weakened.

When x thousand sq feet of concrete crash down on x thousand sq feet of concrete, despite the exoskeleton - it isn't going to go dancing across the Hudson.

It's going to go DOWN.

FFS

Skoob.

RIP
Erskin Quint
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Posted: 8 Oct 11 11:23 - Edited By: Erskin Quint, 8 Oct 11 11:26
Masheded raises a lot of intriguing questions which I couldn't presume to be able to answer.

On the other hand, how on earth could such a thing be engineered by governments? Plain daft.

It seems impossible, as Skoob says.

And yet, it was done by a small group of terrorists with stanley knives. They hit the great financial hub and the pentagon.

It's a mad world.

You'll never see a more awe-inspiring spectacle - all that complex human activity and intelligence and technology - reduced to rubble and dust.

Time for deep thought, you would think, deeply thinking.

It's a bit sad though that it's only led to more violence.

SERIOUS ABOUT DRIVEL
Tommy Twinkle
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Posted: 8 Oct 11 11:43
There is a short film on the internet, 'Psychologists on coping with 9-11 truth' (You Tube). Irrespective of what happened on 9-11 the message from these psychologists does I feel provide each of us an opportunity to understand a little more about ourselves.

Love & Light - TT

Skoob1999
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Posted: 8 Oct 11 13:46
A gent as ever Tommy, and always an interesting contributor to sensible debate.

I've read countless pages and watched hours of documentaries on the subject, and I'm pretty much convinced that what we saw was what actually happened.

One interesting thing which surfaced, is that the towers WERE designed to withstand a plane strike. But an accidental strike, not anticipating that a plane with a full payload of fuel would deliberately accelerate in an attempt to bring the structure down.

When the second plane hit - it was flown at the building in a deliberate attempt to undermine the integrity of the structure. Sadly, it worked. Had the towers been engineered in the same way as the Empire State building, or the Chrysler building, they probably wouldn't have collapsed.

In the 1930's an Air Force bomber hit the Empire State and ploughed almost entirely through the building - one engine went straight through and came out of the other side. It started a fire, but as history shows, the building survived.

Would it survive a 9/11 style attack? Who knows. And I hope we never find out. As Doc says, the design of the towers contributed to their collapse, but in 1970, they weren't even contemplating anything like what happened on 9/11.

The conspiracy theories do make compelling viewing, but they're quite easily dismantled.

Regards

Skoob.

RIP
Erskin Quint
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Posted: 8 Oct 11 17:51 - Edited By: Erskin Quint, 8 Oct 11 17:52
When I said it's a mad world, it's the pseudo-'world' we human beings have created that's mad, that's the thing. That's why these things will continue to happen. Condemn them we must, but, more importantly, we should look at why they occur.

It ain't rocket science (that brought Hiroshima, Nagasaki et al). It's just: be a good person. Each one of us.

Much more important than walking on the moon or making lots of money.

An act of kindness is worth more than all the jewels in the world.

Mind you, they once nailed a bloke to a tree for promoting that kind of sense.

Same old crap year after year. Will they ever learn? No.

SERIOUS ABOUT DRIVEL
Skoob1999
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Posted: 8 Oct 11 18:05
Sad, but true.

Unfortunately we live in a ME!ME!ME! world.

I don't know how some people sleep at night.

Regards

Skoob.

RIP
Masheded
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Posted: 12 Oct 11 22:53
As always, i value and consider all comments on the subject, especially from my fellow Spoofers.

It is not my intention to bring some kind of all mighty debate, or similar distraction, but i do think it is important to question things that modern physics still say are not possible, given the official claim.
There has never been a forensic or police inquiry into the collapse. The debris was shipped to china very quickly. By FFA rules, this was a crime in-itself. If steel can show signs of globalization and travel 1km plus before it hardens...What source caused this?
We all did science at school.
Maybe you would sooner believe bollocks than proven science. Look it up.
None of us are thick, we all get it. Be loyal to the next generation, and expose the lie and return true leadership and liberty to the people.

Masheded.

It seemed like a good idea at the time...

 
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Nate John Won
Nate John Won
Joined: 28 September 2009
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