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Inhopeless
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Posted: 4 Jun 11 00:43
As the public healthcare thingy kerplodes again, I want to know what people think about it. I think its great. You don't have to worry about medical bills, so when you're sick or injured you can concentrate on getting better, and also, its fairer. I mean, Britain, for all the unfair slack it gets, the NHS is still number 15. Not bad for 'socialist', eh?

So, publicly-funded/universal healthcare, is it a plague on humanity, or a healer of man?

Q: Universal Healthcare? Good or Bad?
Good for Us All
78%
Bad for Us All
21%
There have been 14 responses to this poll
"Sometimes the best intentions end up intense without means to quell it.
We've poisoned our blood streams and blackened our lungs. We've enabled the edifice that it's how we belong.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone."

Boys Night Out - "Hey, Thanks!"
victor nicholas
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Posted: 4 Jun 11 12:51
Americans value their right not to be taxed.

Canadians value their right to universal health care.

The quality of care provided is secondary.

"Vottznewpuzzykatt?"
Inhopeless
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Posted: 4 Jun 11 16:47
Value their right not to be taxed? Yeah, because with the money you save from not paying taxes means that you can educate your kids privately and have a private police force! Of course!

What is American healthcare like? I heard that people have to sell homes and hold fundraisers just to pay for an operation. That is just harsh.

I read somewhere (likely to be the Economist) that health insurance tries to poke as many loopholes in your case so they DON'T have to pay out if you go to the doctors. If so, I better pray I don't get hurt in America. I don't want to mortgage the house just to pay someone for the profit motive. See, with UHC, remove the profit motive, and you get care-focused experiences.





"Sometimes the best intentions end up intense without means to quell it.
We've poisoned our blood streams and blackened our lungs. We've enabled the edifice that it's how we belong.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone."

Boys Night Out - "Hey, Thanks!"
Erskin Quint
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Posted: 4 Jun 11 20:50
Well, my mother's just been diagnosed with lung cancer, and so far the health service have been brilliant.

Anyone who would get rid of that is a bastard.

SERIOUS ABOUT DRIVEL
Ellie James
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Posted: 5 Jun 11 03:40
IH - As an American, and as someone who actually has some health issues, I can say that my insurance is great. So far, I haven't been dropped. That was a big deal over here when they were trying to pass healthcare reform....to stop the pre-existing conditions loophole prevalent in many health insurance companies. I was afraid to quit my job because I didn't want another insurance company to deny my coverage because of my pre existing condition. I feel very sorry for the people who can't afford insurance, or are dropped. Those are the people who go into serious debt, can lose their house, etc in the face of a catestrophic illness. I with there was a better answer. A better system. I don't think anyone should suffer, not only a devastating illness, but also face financial ruin. A doctor told me once that if you have a serious illness and have insurance, it's better to be treated in the US. If you don't have insurance, it's better to be in the UK. I think the world would be a better place if we all took care of each other better.

Oh. They've encased him in Carbonite. He should be quite well protected. If he survived the freezing process, that is.
Lady Godiva
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Posted: 5 Jun 11 11:42
In Ontario (don't know about other provinces and territories) you are 'screwed' if you don't have a job which offers medical benefits - or have some type of insurance.

My family is lucky!

I know people who are not so lucky. It's sickening. No pun intended.



Sidney Bollocks
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Posted: 5 Jun 11 11:56



France and the Netherlands provide the answer.

They have a mixed economy of healthcare, spreading the cost between the state and medical insurance companies.

The insurance companies make money, the state saves money and everybody can access healthcare when they need it.

Sorted.




Inhopeless
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Posted: 5 Jun 11 14:41
Wait, your healthcare is tied to your JOB? Whose idea was that? The sadly ironic thing is, you leave work because you're ill. I guess you're double-screwed then.

I agree, the Continent have a much better standard of social care, than here. Somehow, the countries with the biggest dole payments for the proles are the ones with a higher standard of living.

I read (again, in the Economist) that the infant mortality rate in Washington DC is higher than in Bangladesh. I've been to Bangladesh many a time, and their healthcare - if you're not absurdly rich like my cousins there (put it this way: 200mg of paracetamol costs £15/US$24) - is pretty shoddy.

My cousin's friend went to hospital for an op. He was 14. The doctors told him to 'quit crying and man up' when he was feeling scared about the entire thing. After the op, he was in hospital for 2 days, being cared for by apathetic medical staff who stood around gossiping, and in fact, they pumped him with so much morphine he could be at risk of addiction. It cost him $5,000.

Whereas, I went to my GP (family doc) to decide on the dates for my operation (in August). I asked him what's up with me, and he told me everything. He told me how they're going to do it, and what they'll do afterwards. I told him I was pretty scared, and he said that I had every right to be scared, but he said that I would be looked after well, which made me feel better. I asked for a 'bravery' sticker, because stickers are cool. I went to see him two times afterwards without a problem, and managed to change the date of my op three times without any trouble.

In truth, the only bad thing I can think about UHC is long waiting times, but that's a small price to pay for something that is relatively cheap.



"Sometimes the best intentions end up intense without means to quell it.
We've poisoned our blood streams and blackened our lungs. We've enabled the edifice that it's how we belong.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone."

Boys Night Out - "Hey, Thanks!"
victor nicholas
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Posted: 5 Jun 11 15:12
In Canada people worry more about the cost of parking than a heart transplant.

"Vottznewpuzzykatt?"
Tommy Twinkle
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Posted: 5 Jun 11 15:14 - Edited By: Tommy Twinkle, 5 Jun 11 15:23
I had my first(hopefully last) heart attack this year on 15 March. Two days later in hospital I had angioplasty op. 90% blockage cleared with stent at top-left side of heart, another blockage on front of heart, also treated with stent.Discharged day after op. Lots of pills to take but I'm still alive. I received brilliant treatment. NHS.

Three years ago, also NHS, my elderly mum was in my view wrongly placed onto a pathway for the dying when presenting a non-terminal condition that she then went on to recover from only to die a week later from kidney failure caused by having been denied fluids during the three days she'd been on that Liverpool Care Pathway intended to be used for the terminally ill! If she'd had private medical insurance I don't think they'd have thrown the towel in on trying to save her life at the first sign of difficulty!

Lady Godiva
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Posted: 5 Jun 11 15:24 - Edited By: Lady Godiva, 5 Jun 11 16:08
It is terrible state of affairs. I think free healthcare should be worldwide. It should be every individual's 'right'.

Having said that, people with money can jump to the top of all types of lists.

In Ontario, my husband retired but we are still able to enjoy the benefits....so far! U.S. Steel bought the Canadian company a couple of years ago and would like to change all of this. Obviously it is of great concern the the present and retired employees.

Apparently I got the above wrong AGAIN my hubby said US Steel want to change the pensions from defined benefit to defined contribution - so as to save the company money.

He was about to be laid off with no guarantee of a 'call back' so he retired, as did many others. US Steel found they had no one who could do his job...so they've called him back, but he still gets his pension.
That's a whole other story.

victor nicholas
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Posted: 5 Jun 11 15:30
Universal parking, that's what this country needs.


Quote: victor nicholas

In Canada people worry more about the cost of parking than a heart transplant.


"Vottznewpuzzykatt?"
Lady Godiva
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Posted: 5 Jun 11 16:04
All parking IS free in our neck of the woods. They did away with meters in the next little town to ours...years ago and we've never had any meters at all in our little town.

Seriously, though, getting back on topic, although people may think that Americans and Canadians all have perfect teeth....that's not true. Only those who can affordthe fees can have Donny Osmond-style teeth.

Some folk cannot 'afford' to visit a dentist.

If you don't have insurance, medications are beyond your reach as the cost of them, and the dispensing fees are ridiculous.

Some poor people with life-threatening illnesses are unable to get the meds. they need.

I take 4 different meds. every day and don't even wish to think how I would manage if I had to pay the full price for them. As it is, because of benefits, I only pay 50 cents for each refill.

Inhopeless
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Posted: 5 Jun 11 17:40
I pay literally nothing. Nothing at all for my care. Even though I have a Nat'l Insurance Card, I still count as a full-time student, so I don't pay anything for my meds. I could be on 5000mg of pills, I won't pay.

What my real question is, why are so many Americans against it? For God's sake, Steven Hawking - the smartest man on Earth - says that the NHS has saved his life three times! His wheelchair was part-paid with public taxes!

"Sometimes the best intentions end up intense without means to quell it.
We've poisoned our blood streams and blackened our lungs. We've enabled the edifice that it's how we belong.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone."

Boys Night Out - "Hey, Thanks!"
Skoob1999
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Posted: 5 Jun 11 17:52
Being serious for a moment.

IH makes a perfectly valid point.

From various conversations I've had with Americans on the subject, the general feeling is that they object to subsidising health care for those who either can't afford it or choose not to have it.

The general perception appears to be that health care is something to be worked for, and not given.

I kind of get where they're coming from, but I think UHC is a basic right, and should be tax funded. Like our NHS.

It has its down sides, but from what I've seen, there isn't anything out there that could be considered a vast improvement.

Regards

Skoob


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Lady Godiva
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Posted: 5 Jun 11 20:00 - Edited By: Lady Godiva, 6 Jun 11 19:09
No price should be put on Healthcare. It SHOULD be a human right!

Edit: How did the poll end up on my post I ask...Oh! Is it because it is the beginning of a new page, she asks, having lost the use of her question mark yet again!

Ellie James
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Posted: 6 Jun 11 04:00
I agree with LG....it should be a human right. If I lose my job because of budget cuts....it will make going to Houston twice a year a very expensive thing for me!

Oh. They've encased him in Carbonite. He should be quite well protected. If he survived the freezing process, that is.
Inhopeless
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Posted: 6 Jun 11 17:06
Exactly. I remember someone saying that Health Insurance and UHC has their benefits and cons. He then said that the former screws over the poor and terminally ill, and the latter sucks money out for crackheads.

I would rather subsidise crackheads and the poor than fight my way with money. The right to a dependable life should be a right - not a privilege.

Besides, won't people with UHC be less likely to be crackheads? Free care for smoking some weed, instead of paying an arm and a leg (excuse the pun)? Don't forget that European healthcare systems are some of the oldest public institutions in the world, the NHS being the oldest of these European systems, so a few decades and few changes means UHC - at least European UHC - must have something right.

Even India has UHC, albeit to a lesser extent than we Europeans.

In the words of Justin Sane, a singer,
"if healthcare for all,
is good for the economy,
then I am for it!
If healthcare for all,
Is bad for the economy,
then I am against it!"

Most politicians would use the excuse that UHC would be too costly in a reccession, but what they don't know is that European healthcare systems were set up straight after WWII! The NHS was around since 1948, three years after the war. Really, there is no excuse to not have UHC.

It really appears that socially, America is lacking behind the rest of the OECD - no UHC, ill treatment of minorities, no gay marriages or civil partnerships, and still debating the existence of climate change.



"Sometimes the best intentions end up intense without means to quell it.
We've poisoned our blood streams and blackened our lungs. We've enabled the edifice that it's how we belong.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone."

Boys Night Out - "Hey, Thanks!"
Dr. Billingsgate
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Posted: 6 Jun 11 19:45
Just because Portugal, Greece, Ireland and Spain are crying for help because their social policies are bankrupting them, it is understandable (because you're socialists) that you don't consider this a trend.

If you smug bastards would pay for your own national defense instead of waiting for Uncle Sam to bail your asses out; as in WWI, WWII, the Cold War, and now the war against Muslim extremism, you wouldn't have the cash to pay for your present national health insurance either.

So don't lecture America about its responsibilities to its citizens. If things are so bad here, why are we so overwhelmed by immigrants wanting to have their babies here in our hospitals, then filling up our schools with non-English speaking students? This, I remind you, is all paid for by tax-payers like myself. Most of us don't like our living standards lowered because of this inflow, but we are forced to pay for it anyway through taxation; money that could be used for our our own medical plan.

And if Canada's plan is so good, why do Canadians come to America when they can't get treated expeditiously in their own country?

I'm trying to think, but nothing happens.
Inhopeless
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Posted: 6 Jun 11 22:24 - Edited By: Inhopeless, 6 Jun 11 22:24

Quote: Dr. Billingsgate

Just because Portugal, Greece, Ireland and Spain are crying for help because their social policies are bankrupting them, it is understandable (because you're socialists) that you don't consider this a trend.

If you smug bastards would pay for your own national defense instead of waiting for Uncle Sam to bail your asses out; as in WWI, WWII, the Cold War, and now the war against Muslim extremism, you wouldn't have the cash to pay for your present national health insurance either.

So don't lecture America about its responsibilities to its citizens. If things are so bad here, why are we so overwhelmed by immigrants wanting to have their babies here in our hospitals, then filling up our schools with non-English speaking students? This, I remind you, is all paid for by tax-payers like myself. Most of us don't like our living standards lowered because of this inflow, but we are forced to pay for it anyway through taxation; money that could be used for our our own medical plan.

And if Canada's plan is so good, why do Canadians come to America when they can't get treated expeditiously in their own country?


The PIGS countries had economies based around the public, tourism, and construction sectors, all fluctuational sectors, and worst affected in a crisis.

Britain is based around manufacturing, financial, service and technological sectors. Less susceptible to damage.

And here is where my top marks in History come in.

In WWI America came late into the war, around 1916-ish. By this time the Allies were on the path to winning-ish. Even with American help, the war would've ended in a draw nonetheless (remember, we didn't actually win really, Germany just got fed up).

In WWII the Canadian and British forces were most instrumental in the D-Day Landings. Hitler himself said that his forces were to retreat when they see the red leaf.

Also, most of the work (and killed servicemen) was in fact done by the British/Commonwealth and French forces - America was just an arms dealer with a few soldiers on the ground. The loss of American troops was much, much less than that of the Europeans/Commonwealth. Hell, you actually made some profit out of it.

The Cold War was much unnoticed by the European countries - it was effectively America and the USSR, with America just installing bases in Europe.

The so-called 'War on Terror', of which Terror is in the lead, was purely an American thing, with Britain just desperately trying to remain a world force by hanging on the coattails.

Let me remind you, that most immigrants to the US are of South American decent. It is much cheaper to go to the US than to fly to any European nation. Most other immigrants, e.g. Indians, would rather fly to Europe. especially Britain, because a) is cheaper, and b) Britain has a lot more racial tolerance - all the mostly right-wing bullshit that is oft played is ignored.

Also, there are no such thing as 'immigrants' to the US. In effect, most Americans are truly Europeans.

Are you trying to insinuate that socialism is bad? Or are you just using it as a synonym for Communist? Because the longest-serving (democratic) Commie party ever - in India, has drastically improved the lot of the people living in the state (West Bengal) they were leading.

I don't have a clue how Canada runs its healthcare, but I can tell you, the NHS is without a doubt way, way, better than your way.

We spend 8% of GDP on Healthcare.
America spends over 15%!

We have a longer life expectancy, less smokers, lower infant mortality, and best of all, its pretty much cheap (in terms of taxes paid).

There is one war the Americans won't lead because they won't accept its existence. The War on Climate Change. And who's leading that? Europe. At least we're reducing our carbon footprint and CO2 output, yet America produces more CO2 than Africa, Europe and Asia (minus China, Japan) combined!



"Sometimes the best intentions end up intense without means to quell it.
We've poisoned our blood streams and blackened our lungs. We've enabled the edifice that it's how we belong.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone."

Boys Night Out - "Hey, Thanks!"
Lady Godiva
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Posted: 6 Jun 11 22:44 - Edited By: Lady Godiva, 6 Jun 11 22:47
OK...so I am not into politics etc. all I know is that one of my colleagues went to America in December for a procedure which is not available in Canada. She PAID for it so that's money for the US of A isn't it? Canadian money? Hopefully it will work - but it's in the trial stage. She was willing to take the risk and said the money was worth it.

Hey, we have many, many immigrants in Canada. I am in immigrant from England, at present teaching in a school with 80% Mennonite students, many of whom came here from Mexico....some live here now, many are here only a few months each year.

I've researched their history and don't always agree with the ways of their culture...but WE need them as seasonal farm workers because people BORN in Canada don't want the work. They are financially 'better off on Welfare' and many enjoy luxuries the Mennonites cannot afford on farm wages. So....what does this tell you?

Actually I do believe the Government is trying to make it so that people on Welfare have to 'somehow' work to earn it. As I say....I'm not into all of the political side of things.

We also have workers from Barbados here 6 months of the year whilst many 'lazy' Canadians sit and collect welfare rather than "work" at the moment. I hope things DO change.

I don't know what it is like across America....I would assume there are many seasonal workers there too to keep the economy going....

Philbert of Macadamia
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Posted: 6 Jun 11 22:56
Let's not rewrite WWI and WWII history!

British and French generals in WWI were incompetent, killing off a generation of young men for nothing, with useless frontal assaults on German positions. To their credit the British/French soldiers finally figured this out.

US General Pershing knew he was going to lose people, but would not buy into the carnage inficted by Anglo-French generals sending troops into a "meat grinder." US troops were trained to think in defeating the Germans, not throw themseves away uselessly!

Britain's reluctance to listen to Mr. Churchell about Hitler's intent was strongly influenced by a collective memory of the tremendous WWI losses.


There is intelligent life in outer space!
Then why do the UFO's not land on the Earth?
As I said, there is intelligent life in outer space!
Inhopeless
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Posted: 6 Jun 11 22:57

Quote: Lady Godiva

OK...so I am not into politics etc. all I know is that one of my colleagues went to America in December for a procedure which is not available in Canada. She PAID for it so that's money for the US of A isn't it? Canadian money? Hopefully it will work - but it's in the trial stage. She was willing to take the risk and said the money was worth it.

Hey, we have many, many immigrants in Canada. I am in immigrant from England, at present teaching in a school with 80% Mennonite students, many of whom came here from Mexico....some live here now, many are here only a few months each year.

I've researched their history and don't always agree with the ways of their culture...but WE need them as seasonal farm workers because people BORN in Canada don't want the work. They are financially 'better off on Welfare' and many enjoy luxuries the Mennonites cannot afford on farm wages. So....what does this tell you?

Actually I do believe the Government is trying to make it so that people on Welfare have to 'somehow' work to earn it. As I say....I'm not into all of the political side of things.

We also have workers from Barbados here 6 months of the year whilst many 'lazy' Canadians sit and collect welfare rather than "work" at the moment. I hope things DO change.

I don't know what it is like across America....I would assume there are many seasonal workers there too to keep the economy going....


Precisely. Immigrants work harder than the resident population. That's why there's so many papers about the Polish stealing British jobs, even though they're taking the 'British' jobs that the British don't want to do. Like it or not, the drivers may be our citizens, but the wheels, gears, and cogs are immigrants.

There are people who need Welfare, and there are the lazy sods who cheat the system. I suggest giving these people jobs, and if they don't want them, shoot them, I am saying that as a 'Socialist' as Dr. B would put it (I am actually a Democratic Socialist, but that's besides the point).

I would rather subsidise workers than subsidise dole collectors, because work - especially in the youth - instills pride, responsibility, and above all, the feeling that one has earned ones keep.

Anyway, Dr. B, you didn't specify why you think the American system is much better than UHC. You claim that immigrants and Canadians love your healthcare, but is it better than UHC?

"Sometimes the best intentions end up intense without means to quell it.
We've poisoned our blood streams and blackened our lungs. We've enabled the edifice that it's how we belong.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone."

Boys Night Out - "Hey, Thanks!"
Dr. Billingsgate
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Posted: 6 Jun 11 23:18
The PIGS countries had economies based around the public, tourism, and construction sectors, all fluctuational sectors, and worst affected in a crisis.

Britain is based around manufacturing, financial, service and technological sectors. Less susceptible to damage.

Response: They were all spending more money than they were taking in because of too many promises by government to take care of people who won't take care of themselves. We have the same problem in America. I guess Britain is immune...duhh!

And here is where my top marks in History come in.

In WWI America came late into the war, around 1916-ish. By this time the Allies were on the path to winning-ish. Even with American help, the war would've ended in a draw nonetheless (remember, we didn't actually win really, Germany just got fed up).

In WWII the Canadian and British forces were most instrumental in the D-Day Landings. Hitler himself said that his forces were to retreat when they see the red leaf.

Also, most of the work (and killed servicemen) was in fact done by the British/Commonwealth and French forces - America was just an arms dealer with a few soldiers on the ground. The loss of American troops was much, much less than that of the Europeans/Commonwealth. Hell, you actually made some profit out of it.

The Cold War was much unnoticed by the European countries - it was effectively America and the USSR, with America just installing bases in Europe.

The so-called 'War on Terror', of which Terror is in the lead, was purely an American thing, with Britain just desperately trying to remain a world force by hanging on the coattails.

Response: Are you talking about REAL history or RELATIVE history? Your top marks in History are an illusion. I shall not waste my time rebutting each point I disagree with. You conveniently forgot to mention the Soviet Union's role in defeating Germany on the Eastern front. And why would you include France? Other than the Resistance Forces, they kissed Hitler's ass.

Let me remind you, that most immigrants to the US are of South American decent. It is much cheaper to go to the US than to fly to any European nation. Most other immigrants, e.g. Indians, would rather fly to Europe. especially Britain, because a) is cheaper, and b) Britain has a lot more racial tolerance - all the mostly right-wing bullshit that is oft played is ignored.

RESPONSE: America would love for you take all of our illegal aliens and would be happy to pay their airfare to UK. Thank you! The pleasure is ours.

Also, there are no such thing as 'immigrants' to the US. In effect, most Americans are truly Europeans.

RESPONSE: WTF are you talking about?

Are you trying to insinuate that socialism is bad? Or are you just using it as a synonym for Communist? Because the longest-serving (democratic) Commie party ever - in India, has drastically improved the lot of the people living in the state (West Bengal) they were leading.

RESPONSE: Yes. Yes. And how would you like to be a female fetus in West Bengal?

I don't have a clue how Canada runs its healthcare, but I can tell you, the NHS is without a doubt way, way, better than your way.

RESPONSE: Anything is way, way better if someone else is paying for it.

We spend 8% of GDP on Healthcare.
America spends over 15%!

RESPONSE: You get what you pay for.

We have a longer life expectancy, less smokers, lower infant mortality, and best of all, its pretty much cheap (in terms of taxes paid).

RESPONSE: If I didn't know better, I would move from San Diego to one of your beautiful industrial cities. Do you recommend one?

There is one war the Americans won't lead because they won't accept its existence. The War on Climate Change. And who's leading that? Europe. At least we're reducing our carbon footprint and CO2 output, yet America produces more CO2 than Africa, Europe and Asia (minus China, Japan) combined!

RESPONSE: WTF is wrong with C02? I thought that trees and other green plants needed it for photosynthesis. If we didn't have carbon, how could we build our Stealth Bombers and golf club shafts?


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Skoob1999
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Posted: 6 Jun 11 23:33
Dr B

Word the wise son.

Walk away.

IH won every point in that last exchange, and your rebuttals made no sense at all.

Just sayin'

Skoob.

RIP

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K.C. Bell
K.C. Bell
Joined: 27 June 2004
Stories Written: 248

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