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Bureau
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Bureau

Registered: 6 Sep 08

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Posted: 5 May 11 18:05
Those who know me know that I seldom get upset. But today I went out to purchase American flags for my older brother and brother in laws graves and it took a good while to find a store that still carried them.

My brother was in the Pacific and my brother-in-law fought his way all the way through Africa into Europe and into Germany.

He saw the gas chambers on the trains, he was one of two still alive after one battle and he had to place his machine gun down at times because it was too hot to hold.

Then he got captured himself and upon breaking out, was fired upon by his own troops who thought he and his fellow escapees were the enemy.

He came home and never talked about any of it, but finally told me what happened about a month before he died. No one even knew he had won so many metals until they saw his kid playing with them.

With Memorial Day coming soon, you would think that stores would have a few American flags but many don't.

I only write this here because I want people who write on here to remember those dead, whether in the military or the innocent people below the bombs in Britain and elsewhere.

Please, please don't forget those people and the ones serving now. At 64, I worry about the next generation. Will they even stop for a moment of silence?

And if you're a vet or a Red Cross worker from that era, thank you!

-Bureau



Sometimes the light's all shinin' on me;
Other times I can barely see.
Lately it occurs to me, What a long, strange trip it's been.
Skoob1999
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Skoob1999

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Posted: 5 May 11 18:13
Bureau,

Nobody I know, or in my family will ever forget the sacrifices those men made.

I had family involved too, and my cousin's lad is currently serving in Afghanistan.

Take heart mate - you're not alone.

Best Regards

Skoob.

RIP
Inhopeless
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Inhopeless

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Posted: 5 May 11 18:20
I did the League of Nations and the Cold War last year for Modern World History.

For those without a secondary education knowledge of 20th Century History, the League of Nations was the forerunner to today's United Nations Organisation. It failed miserably because it did not have the backing of America's Congress (even though it was Woodrow Wilson's idea) and was politically weak because of the nations acting in their own interest (e.g. Britain and other European countries would not act against Japan, even though Japan had invaded China and taken over huge swathes of area).

Anyway, I know that hundreds and thousands died in both world wars. We covered that bit.

I know that Hitler killed 6mn untermenten - albeit legally. I know that WWI was started by the death of an Austrian leader, and lead to stalemate. Hell, I could tell you the make-up of trenches.

What I don't know is how it feels to be in a war zone. I don't know that feeling of killing a fellow man, because he lived in a different country.
I don't know that millions have died without mercy.
I can know what happened, but to me, it's 12 marks. I feel nothing. I can't know how it feels. It is easy for us who didn't experience these things, to remain detached from them.

I can always learn about the event. I can never feel the event.

Which is why, Bureau, I salute you. For keeping hold of memories that I hopefully will never have to live through, because of the sacrifices made by people I will never ever know.

In fact, I am anti-war, but I salute, and am humbled by any soldier fighting for peanuts. I hate my army, but am proud of my brave soldiers.


"Sometimes the best intentions end up intense without means to quell it.
We've poisoned our blood streams and blackened our lungs. We've enabled the edifice that it's how we belong.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone."

Boys Night Out - "Hey, Thanks!"
Colonel Juan
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Colonel Juan

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Posted: 5 May 11 18:25 - Edited By: Colonel Juan, 5 May 11 18:26




Top man InH..

You're a credit to something or other..

England..?

Education system?

Family?

Whatever it is.. that was smashing...





RIP
Lynton
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Lynton

Location: Paris
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Posted: 5 May 11 18:54
IH you are a gem. Bureau in every village across britain there is a war memorial with the names of those who died. Permanent legally constructed and protected monuments generally associated with the churches so nobody forgets. Yearly processions and the laying of wreaths, organised on the 11 November each year. This regular, for want of a better word is organised by the royal British Legion who occupy themselves with the welfare of soldiers who have suffered in combat. We do not have a national government run veterans hospital as in the US and generally our governments treat soldiers abysmally. The rest is left to charities such as St. Dunstans who rehabilitated blinded soldiers.

A small country relative to the US but as IH says a national history curriculum that contains a significant slice of 20th century history.

Yet there is a growing percentage of people in an'underclass' who have no interest in education. Will people ever forget. I hope not and they probably will not since there are wars going on now and which are likely to continue and in which we are involved.



Watching paint dry
Morse
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Morse

Location: South Carolina, usa
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Posted: 5 May 11 19:04


Thanks Bureau and IH...

Bad times,brave men, we salute them!

Morse

Whether you're rich or you're poor, it always pays to have money!
Ellie James
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Ellie James

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Posted: 5 May 11 19:10
I have had two cousins serve in the Army. One, thankfully, got out after a tour in Bosnia. I said thankfully because he almost caused an international incident. I love him to pieces, but he had no business being a soldier.

The other, his older brother, is a career soldier who has been to Korea, and twice to Irag. This second time, he came back a somewhat different person due to Post Traumatic Stress. I want him to hurry up and retire so he won't have to go back and return even more different.

All that being said, I am much like IH. I don't understand war, but I do think WWI and II were worth fighting. I respect and admire the soldiers, especially those who died fighting trying to protect the freedoms and rights of those who are safe at home.

If I find some American flags...I'll let you know. You might try a dollar store like Dollar Tree, if you have those in your area.

Oh. They've encased him in Carbonite. He should be quite well protected. If he survived the freezing process, that is.
P.M. Wortham
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Posted: 5 May 11 19:15

Quote: Morse

Thanks Bureau and IH...

Bad times,brave men, we salute them!

Morse



Hear, Hear!

B, not that it makes your shopping or memorial activities any better at all, but I seem to remember that the stores usually only stock up on flags in advance of May and Memorial Day. I think some TV "How its Made" show talked about those textile manufacturers work off that same seasonal schedule. Then you can find them everywhere, big box stores, drug stores... It doesn't soften the sting when you are trying to honor a fellow patriot.

Anyway... thoughts are with you on that one....
PM

Bureau
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Bureau

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Posted: 5 May 11 19:17 - Edited By: Bureau, 5 May 11 19:20
As a line in an old Peter, Paul & Mary song goes:

"The wars are long,
The peace is frail,
The mad men come again."

I know of few soldiers who would not love for peace to prevail and to go home, but the mad men keep coming.

By the way, I meant nothing against any of our German writers in my little speech. You probably suffered even more under a mad man. He even sacrificed your teens.

The question is an individual one.

It's one thing to give up your life for peace. But it's another entirely when you see there are guns aimed at your wife and children.

No one can really answer that until they go through it.

Hope none of us ever have to.

But it's sad to try to go out and purchase flags for people who were willing to die for you and it's hard to do.

By the way, the ones I finally found were made in China.

Sometimes the light's all shinin' on me;
Other times I can barely see.
Lately it occurs to me, What a long, strange trip it's been.
churchmouse
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churchmouse

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Posted: 5 May 11 20:50
I am an old soldier myself, and was in the first Gulf War. I was only ever shot at twice (once by our own side)and saw a few unpleasant things during my time.

Although I was proud of my country and still am - as you can never take away the inner culture of where you were born, if I learnt only one thing during my military service it was that all soldiers are only men but have more integrity than their masters.

Be proud of your nation, but have love for your mates, and the colour of the flag doesn't matter. Soldiers are honourable men whatever flag they serve under, and they save the failings of powerful politicians and corporations.

The flag is only a flag. The men are more important.

And as the baby rabbit of hope emerges into the soft sunlight of happiness to be confronted with the double barrels of reality
Lady Godiva
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Posted: 5 May 11 20:59
So glad you eventually found some flags. Although I work in a small school in a very rural area, we have a memorial in the field next to the school, with the names of all the soldiers from the village who were killed in the Second World War.

Our students 4-14 yr olds go across every November with the 'class-made' wreaths and stand with members of the Legion (fewer each year) who proudly salute and we have a lovely outdoor service to remember the brave soldiers.

We cannot identify with these men but we CAN remember them and keep them 'alive in the minds of the children' LEST THEY FORGET.

We were talking about wars just the other day when a student came in talking about the death of Bin Laden (l0 yr. old student).

A girl had a book out of the school library about slavery so a discussion began about the American Civil war. We went on to discuss how wars were still being fought overseas and how children THEIR age are taken and trained as soldiers and/or being killed.

My Uncle (I didn't get to meet him) went all the way through WWII without a scratch and was killed in peace time, being hit by an 'out of control tank'.

My brother-in-law was a career soldier and went on 'tours' of Ireland many times and was involved in the Gulf war.

In the Health Unit I was in I met a number of military men and women - who had seen action in Afghanistan.

The soldiers past and present are always in my thoughts.

I just see no point in Wars. Who gains? We all lose.

LG





Jaggedone
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Posted: 6 May 11 15:57 - Edited By: Jaggedone, 6 May 11 17:49
Maybe you guys should send this thread to some of our "pleasant" UK Islamic extremists who are allowed to burn the Union Jack and tread on poppies in the middle of London and get away with it!

A couple of my heroic dead uncles who fought for our freedom would have stuck some hand grenades up their sorry butts.

Monkey nutter...
Philbert of Macadamia
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Philbert of Macadamia

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Posted: 6 May 11 17:08 - Edited By: Philbert of Macadamia, 6 May 11 17:16
Bureau:

I look at current events with some bewilderment. (Both my brothers served in WWII.)

US college students rallied outside the White House in Washington DC and other cities (as did many people) at the news of the demise of Osama bin Laden by a US SEAL team, chanting USA, USA..... Yet many US high school students, when asked, didn't know who Osama bin Laden was.

Chinese made or not, my flag flies on Memorial Day and other days commemorating, remembering and celebrating those who served in the military. The UK spoofers seem to have a similar perspective for those who serve in their military.

Hang in there!

PoM

There is intelligent life in outer space!
Then why do the UFO's not land on the Earth?
As I said, there is intelligent life in outer space!
Lady Godiva
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Posted: 6 May 11 17:09
JO I know it may sound flippant of me to say this...but it's only a flag, a piece of material and a few flowers (much as I love flowers). Those idiots are just showing their ignorance when they carry out such acts....childish acts.

We have to 'rise above it'. They are pathetic, sad, ignorant people with no joy in their lives..but I'd rather they burned a flag and stomped on some poppies than throw a grenade into a crowd of innocent people.

LG

Jaggedone
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Posted: 6 May 11 17:54
Ignorance???? There was a recent doc on the BBC about these extremos and the majority of these clowns are well educated university students who's fees were paid by you and me?

Like many Spoofers here I have many dead uncles, grandfathers, etc who, laid down their lives for "freedom" and if they were to know what is going down in the UK they would pass out in their graves not turn!

Sorry LG, don't agree on this one



Quote: Lady Godiva

JO I know it may sound flippant of me to say this...but it's only a flag, a piece of material and a few flowers (much as I love flowers). Those idiots are just showing their ignorance when they carry out such acts....childish acts.

We have to 'rise above it'. They are pathetic, sad, ignorant people with no joy in their lives..but I'd rather they burned a flag and stomped on some poppies than throw a grenade into a crowd of innocent people.

LG


Monkey nutter...
Inhopeless
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Inhopeless

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Posted: 6 May 11 18:45

Quote: Jaggedone

Ignorance???? There was a recent doc on the BBC about these extremos and the majority of these clowns are well educated university students who's fees were paid by you and me?

Like many Spoofers here I have many dead uncles, grandfathers, etc who, laid down their lives for "freedom" and if they were to know what is going down in the UK they would pass out in their graves not turn!

Sorry LG, don't agree on this one



Quote: Lady Godiva

JO I know it may sound flippant of me to say this...but it's only a flag, a piece of material and a few flowers (much as I love flowers). Those idiots are just showing their ignorance when they carry out such acts....childish acts.

We have to 'rise above it'. They are pathetic, sad, ignorant people with no joy in their lives..but I'd rather they burned a flag and stomped on some poppies than throw a grenade into a crowd of innocent people.

LG



So wait? Well-educated, smart people, young, naive? Oh fuck.

On a serious note, LG, it's not the fact they did shit to flowers and flags (hell, they stole an ENTIRE 2km street's poppies near my house. TWO KILOMETRES.), it's what their intentions were.

I'm a patriot - born here, lives here, educated here, work here, and finally, die here - not a nationalist - and they wanted to effectively piss on the graves of thousands who died so that they could get the education that they claim to have.

In fact, most of the south Asian nations - Pakistan, India, Bangladesh (Well, what is now Pakistan, India and Bangladesh) - sent soldiers to help in the war effort.

So they're pissing on the graves of their own ancestors.

My cousin did a tour of Afghanistan, and he said that scared every single day.

It's not even that. Because they claim to do it in the name of Islam - which is a peaceful religion (at least no less peaceful than Christianity or Judaism) - the 2mn Muslims living in Britain all sigh a collective FUCK as these people - no, rats - are just defecating on the Qu'ran.

They want to know why the West thinks they're losers? Attacking people doesn't do you any favours. This isn't tribalism.

Eventually, they'll stop. Eventually. Like the IRA did [here's a quick recap of what they did: thought Northern Ireland should be part of Ireland proper, blew up cops, blew up British sites, attacked several buildings near my house, and nearly killed Thatcher].

However, this 'War on Terror' is bullshit. If we wanted to stop terrorism, we need to enter talks with the extremists, but we can't do that because it's too late, thanks to Blair and Bush and their war-mongering efforts.

I want world peace. Sadly, it is assholes who can't give it up who stop my dream.

In fact, what was their point in burning flags and stealing poppies? Did they think that the entire nation would bow down?

If it was a question of mistreatment, that is also bullshit. Britain has one of the world's most stringent anti-discrimination laws, and a pretty reasonable safety net.

They're just like rebellious teenagers, except without common sense, and fucked-up minds.

If they were uni-educated, surely they could not be indoctrinated? People like this are so... there is not a word for it.

<end rant>

"Sometimes the best intentions end up intense without means to quell it.
We've poisoned our blood streams and blackened our lungs. We've enabled the edifice that it's how we belong.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone."

Boys Night Out - "Hey, Thanks!"
Jaggedone
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Posted: 6 May 11 19:06
INH, good analogy with the IRA, but different cause and different motives.

As for uni-educated morons, I agree.

Jihad is an integral part of the Islamic religion and every single Muslim, extreme or non-extreme has to abide by Islamic law.

The extremists practice it without inhibition the non- extremists believe in their Jihad but are reluctant to force the issue. Only when the extremists achieve their goals will the "nons" show their true colours.

It's a "Medusa" scenario without any solution at all which faces the human race and their pathetic alliances to their mythological Gods.

I wish I was an alien!


Monkey nutter...
Inhopeless
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Posted: 6 May 11 20:24

Quote: Jaggedone

INH, good analogy with the IRA, but different cause and different motives.

As for uni-educated morons, I agree.

Jihad is an integral part of the Islamic religion and every single Muslim, extreme or non-extreme has to abide by Islamic law.

The extremists practice it without inhibition the non- extremists believe in their Jihad but are reluctant to force the issue. Only when the extremists achieve their goals will the "nons" show their true colours.

It's a "Medusa" scenario without any solution at all which faces the human race and their pathetic alliances to their mythological Gods.

I wish I was an alien!


Jihad literally means 'struggle'. Usually, that means like protesting and stuff like that, but these Islamoidiots have taken it to mean 'be a homicidal prick'.

I sure do hope that there is a hell, so people like these terrorists can pay for their sins.

What do you mean when you state that "The extremists practice it without inhibition the non- extremists believe in their Jihad but are reluctant to force the issue. Only when the extremists achieve their goals will the "nons" show their true colours."?

But yeah, I too wish I was an alien, but that would mean moving house, and I kinda like living in central Birmingham.

"Sometimes the best intentions end up intense without means to quell it.
We've poisoned our blood streams and blackened our lungs. We've enabled the edifice that it's how we belong.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone.
We may suffer together, but we all die alone."

Boys Night Out - "Hey, Thanks!"
Jaggedone
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Jaggedone

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Posted: 8 May 11 11:19 - Edited By: Jaggedone, 8 May 11 11:25
INH, just as you used an analogy quoting the IRA "struggle" (which was very violent and deadly and still is albeit more from the protestant side these days) I dare to also utilise an analogy with Nazi Germany, re you question?.

Hitler's astronomic rise in power at the beginning could never have been visualised and was actually cast to the side by the then world powers as being a bunch of extreme right morons totally underestimating Hitler's propaganda machine.

It was only after acts of intimidation, propaganda that his extreme army of closest followers convinced the rest of the German sheep to obey and follow his policies utilising the economic disaster (caused by the US) of the day.

What I meant was, initially, extremism always leads the way for change and the powers that be behind the Jihad or Global Islamic revolution use extreme acts purposely to intimidate and install fear into those who are not so extreme but believe in their religion.

Coinciding with the brainwashing process (a la Nazism), eventually, when extremism gains ground those who only follow and believe in Islam will ultimately accept the fact that brutality and acts of violence are the only methods possible to install real change.

Pacifism in Islam is recognised, but also the global Jihad or challenge utilising violence is also recognised allowing extremists to do their dirty work behind the cloak of their sanctioned religious beliefs.

I once read an article in the Times many years ago by a global expert on such affairs and he predicted that the Islamic expansion will be the ultimate battle, which has to be defeated before any form of global peace can ever be achieved.

I certainly hate the ignorant US methods of combatting the Islamic danger, but if I had the choice of the 2 evils it would be the US version.

BTW, I am totally and utterly anti-politics of all genres. they're all corrupt IMHO.

We recently visited the Aston Villa ground and after not being in the area for many years I was left in a state of shock after observing the demographic changes which have taken place over the last 10-20 years in the area. This is not the UK I once lived in, sadly to say and anybody who dares mention multi-culti as the ultimate solution to all of our ills has their head up their butts.

BTW I am neither a nationalist or a racist, I just observe the evolutionary truth as it unfolds before our eyes.

Monkey nutter...
Morse
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Posted: 8 May 11 13:30


well said JO.

Please note the current wold similarities to that in post world war Germany...

economic collapse, famine, inflation, printing of million dollar German Marks, civilian unrest, and rushing to raise the flag under the guise of nationalism...they always said Hitler couldn't happen 'here'....har, bet my arse, just a conflagration waiting to happen... class warfare at a previously unknown scale....

...appearing in a country, town, and urban venue close by soon!

Regards,

Neville



Whether you're rich or you're poor, it always pays to have money!
Skoob1999
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Posted: 8 May 11 13:36
In my hand...I have...a piece of paper...

Just sayin'

RIP
Morse
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Posted: 8 May 11 13:42

Quote: Skoob1999

In my hand...I have...a piece of paper...

Just sayin'



...and on his head a funny hat.....

political paper...good for wipin' one's arse...not to mention 'word of honour'

B. Arnold
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Bureau
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Bureau

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Posted: 8 May 11 14:09

Good points being brought out on this subject. The thing is that we have the FREEDOM to express all these opinions.

I think that what hit me so hard about not being able to find American flags to place on the graves of two very brave men, was the fact that every one of those places had "Kentucky Wildcat" basketball shirts and /or banners, caps, etc.

My country is not the same one it was a couple of decades ago, either J.O. We are becoming the dinosaurs.

In the words of Archie Bunker: "This ain't the same U S of A that I fought and died for!"

Sometimes the light's all shinin' on me;
Other times I can barely see.
Lately it occurs to me, What a long, strange trip it's been.
Colonel Juan
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Colonel Juan

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Posted: 8 May 11 14:15


Very interesting piece in this week's Spectator for our American chums.. If anyone can access it..

It's by Hugo Rifkind, journalist son of a Scottish Tory ex Defence & Foreign Secretary..

Whatever yer politics or POV.. seriously bright..

Just recommendin'




RIP
Jaggedone
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Posted: 8 May 11 18:24
Lou Reed and I quote: "give me an issue, I'll give you a tissue and you can wipe my arse with it!"

Great minds think alike!

In my hand...I have...a piece of paper...

Just sayin'



...and on his head a funny hat.....

political paper...good for wipin' one's arse...not to mention 'word of honour'

B. Arnold
General
Retired


Monkey nutter...

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